YUMA — President Bush returned to this Southwestern Arizona border region Monday nearly a year after his last visit to tout progress the U.S. Border Patrol has made in slowing illegal traffic since he sent the National Guard to the border last June.
1. Comment by charlie a. (treehugger)— April 10,2007 @ 3:42AM
2. Comment by Harry D. (Dog Dude (Blue heeler))— April 10,2007 @ 4:08AM
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Oh my God! Not only do I agree with Reverend Hoover, so does Glenn Spencer, president of the Cochise County-based American Border Patrol
Yet critics and immigration analysts say the dip in apprehensions in the Yuma Sector doesn't mean the nation is any closer to controlling its southern border. Approximately the same number of people have illegally crossed into the county every year since 1995, despite the increase in agents, fences and technology, said the Rev. Robin Hoover, founder of Humane Borders.
"Border Patrol lacks tactical control of any corridor in Arizona," Hoover said.
bq. In order to make a point, the government has devoted unprecedented resources in the Yuma area that it couldn't duplicate along the rest of the border, said Glenn Spencer, president of the Cochise County-based American Border Patrol, a non-governmental organization that keeps tabs on the Border Patrol.
bq. "It is merely a dog-and-pony show," said Spencer, who recently flew over Yuma in his organization's plane.
Bush is "trying to convince the American people that the border is or will soon be under control so he will gain acceptance for his guest-worker program," Spencer added.
It's clear this surge is illegal alien encouraged by the promises of amnesty disguised as a "guest-worker program" and "a path to legalization for some for the estimated 10 million to 12 million illegal entrants", btw is a dishonest liberal term for illegal aliens, the liberal substitutes illegal alien with "entrants" because they think you are to stupid to notice the slight of hand.
But then Reverend Hover goos off the deep end...
"We need a carrot instead of a stick," said Hoover, of Humane Borders. "We need to face up to the fact that we basically let all these people in here because we wanted them here."
"we"? You may want them here but I do not.
I ask you this Reverend Hoover, how many invading illegal aliens have you or your group lured to their death thinking you or your group will save them from their own folly of trying to walk across a deadly desert?
We don't need a carrot, that carrot is you Reverend and the criminal law breaking employers who lure them here.
What we need is to take the carrot away, both of them.
We can arrest the employers, but what can we do with your type?
Charge you with manslaughter for luring people to their death with the promises of water, food and aid many never find perhaps?
This has been said many times over..
build a border land tent city prison for illegal aliens and the "carrot" people who lure them here.
Make the captured illegal aliens spend a year building the much needed fence which regardless of what Bush says is not being built to and meaningful measure and make them pick up the trash they are destroying our fragile desert with.
The arrested employers of illegal aliens can spend a year supervising the building of the fence while to clueless do-gooders who help illegal aliens can help them pick up the trash.
After a year in a labor camp deport the illegal aliens, they will be unlikely willing to come back for two years in prison. If the employers again hire illegal aliens confiscate their business and holding to pay for the damage they are doing to Americans.
Once illegal aliens can no longer get work or help they will self deport, no need for big round ups of the up to 30 million already here.
Offering invaders amnesty will only increase the flood bringing it to at least 50 million.
Offering criminals citizenship as a reward for breaking the law makes a mockery of the legal immigrants who come here the correct way, waiting their turn, paying all the fees and jumping through all the hoops.
"The United States Government Accountability Office (GAO) has dealt the fatal blow to the controversial concept of Guest Worker Amnesty to 12 million illegal aliens now living in the United States in defiance of our laws. The GAO is the Investigative arm of Congress charged with examining matters relating to the receipt and payment of public funds. In a devastating report released March 14th, the GAO charges the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) - this is the agency under the Department of Homeland Security that would be in charge of proposed Guest Worker Amnesty - with a failed organizational infrastructure and massive mismanagement and corruption." -- GAO Report: The Death Blow to Guest Worker Amnesty
Any "immigration reform" must include certain and effective prosection of illegal aliens. As a recent story in the Arizona Daily Star reported, "For all the tough talk out of Washington on immigration, illegal entrants caught along the Mexican border have almost no reason to fear they will be prosecuted. Ninety-eight percent of those arrested between Oct. 1, 2000, and Sept. 30, 2005, were never prosecuted, according to an Associated Press analysis of federal data. Those crossers, more than 5 million, were simply escorted back across the border and released. Many presumably tried to slip into the U.S. again." -- Prosecution little threat to illegal entrants
"The Heritage Foundation report calculates that for every $1 unskilled workers pay in taxes they receive about $3 in government benefits, including Medicaid, food stamps, public housing and other welfare programs. It should serve as a warning to President Bush and lawmakers proposing to give illegal aliens a so-called path to citizenship or what critics call amnesty, said Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, ranking Republican on the Judiciary Committee, which handles immigration bills." -- Study: Unskilled alien workers a drain on taxpayers
Bush's latest push for amnesty for illegal aliens is in total disregard of the best interests of American citizens.
9. Comment by Dave P. (AZ Man)— April 10,2007 @ 5:54AM
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So, how does Bush explain this:
BISBEE — After nearly two years of declining numbers, illegal border-crossings took a sudden jump last month in Cochise County, law enforcement officials say.
Gustavo Soto, a spokesman for the Border Patrol’s Tucson Sector, said agents at the Naco, Douglas and Willcox stations apprehended just over 13,000 illegal immigrants last month, a 30 percent increase over March 2006. Prior to the spike, Border Patrol apprehensions in the county had been down 13 percent since the current fiscal year began on Oct. 1. That decline followed a 45 percent drop during the previous year.
15. Comment by Scott B. (scoot)— April 10,2007 @ 6:29AM
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Dave P asks "So, how does Bush explain this: After nearly two years of declining numbers, illegal border-crossings took a sudden jump last month"
Bush clearly explained that when he visited the border in 2005 , saying: "And one of the best examples of success is the Arizona Border Control Initiative, which the government launched in 2004. In the first year of this initiative -- now, listen to this, listen how hard these people are working here -- agents in Arizona apprehended nearly 500,000 illegal immigrants, a 42-percent increase over the previous year."
See, when the numbers go down or go up, its always good news for this pollyanna administration!
20. Comment by Richard S. (Harry Red Dog)— April 10,2007 @ 6:51AM
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It really doesn't matter now what Bush has to say about anything. The American public has simply tuned him out. the first president to be ignored as "white noise." He could be replaced by an android programmed to shuffle, stammer and lie. No one would be any the wiser.
Except for Barney and maybe Laura. I'm not betting on Laura.
25. Comment by Donald H. (#2161)— April 10,2007 @ 7:07AM
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Spin Doctor Bush believes that if you tell the people what you want them to believe often enough, they will believe anything they are told. There should be a song called Lie Me A River playing in the background every time he holds a press conference.
26. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 7:07AM
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Hoover, of Humane Borders says: "We need to face up to the fact that we basically let all these people in here because we wanted them here."
The "we" is actually greedy business persons that want to illegally depress wages; not the majority of Americans. It is very dishonest of Hoover to claim that Americans in general "wanted" illegals to come here. The majority of Americans want the very opposite. We the People have overwhelming supported anti-illegal immigrating measures. Americans want illegal immigration stopped and the border reasonably closed.
29. Comment by Joel S. (NativeSon)— April 10,2007 @ 7:13AM
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The president said a temporary-worker program is needed to address the underlying economic reasons for illegal immigration. Many illegal entrants come to take the jobs "Americans are not doing," he said.
What a joke!! Cheap labor at low wages. That is what he means!
30. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 7:15AM
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So, Bush is basically bragging that he has gone from almost no internal enforcement and weak border enforcement to half-assed internal and border enforcement. I'm not impressed. Make a honest effort to make the border reasonably secure and a honest effort to enforce the current immigration laws and then, after a clear reduction of illegal immigration has occured, we can talk about a temporary worker program.
31. Comment by Joe N. (Joseph N)— April 10,2007 @ 7:20AM
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If the politicians won't do the job, the people will..the kettle is starting to boil Folks and I believe the politicians are FINALLY realizing this as well as the long term problems with criminals invading the US.
Perhaps, a bit too late and not quite fast enough bit the ship is slowly starting to turn.
My advice: Get involved in your own way and be aware of the issues / problems, current and potential!
33. Comment by Robert S. (bts)— April 10,2007 @ 7:30AM
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27. Nope, not missing a beat. It's all coming out of your wallet which is why we really ought to do everything in our power to send them back asap. Much, much cheaper in the long term to deport them. Employers who hire these illegal aliens should also be sent to the border tent cities as well, President Bush among them.
34. Comment by Ed W. (edweirdness)— April 10,2007 @ 7:31AM
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Am I the only one who finds having a delusional martinet for President a little disconcerting? Considering the increased costs (more border patrol, National Guard, infrastructure) and given the marginal (perhaps seasonal) reductions in illegals passing through Yuma, we're getting damn little return on our investment. Cracking down on employers, job site raids, may make "illegal immigrants" uncomfortable (much the same as having a cop car follow you) but no one said breaking our laws should be "stress free"! Obviously liberals realize (the more Pelosi, Reid, or Kennedy talk, the more they realize) how tenuous their grip on either House of Congress is. Indeed, most rational people view last November not as a plebicite, but rather a reflection of House and Senate members getting what they deserve for not listening to their constituents. Obviously, Democrats have failed to learn from the Republican mistakes, so its a valid assumption that Liberals would seek to bolster their constituency among "immigrants".
Both this Administration and the majority of both Houses, RINO's included; are tragically misguided in their efforts to implement comprehensive immigration reforms. How on Earth can any sane person suggest that "more people chasing fewer resources" is in any way responsible immigration policy?
The best course for voters in all future elections would seem to be to "vote out everyone" at "every opportunity". By replacing Legislators as often as possible, we can stymie the culture of "self interest and cronyism" that serving numerous terms engenders. It also defuses the value of incumbency and money that prevents good, decent citizens from running for office!
35. Comment by J F. (AmVet)— April 10,2007 @ 7:39AM
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Here are a few quotations from Tony Dolz, a foreign-born Hispanic legal immigrant, now a naturalized citizen, who supports legal immigration and opposes illegal immigration:
"The most recent Pew Hispanic Center 's study indicates that 97% of 12 to 20 million illegal aliens are working in construction, hospitality, manufacturing, restaurant, administrative and service jobs. Are these jobs that Americans will not do?"
"Let's be honest about this. The Senate Judiciary Committee amnesty proposal is in effect an amnesty for the criminal employers who have been avoiding employer sanctions since the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA). IRCA was America 's last failed attempt at granting amnesty to criminal aliens to stem the tide of illegal immigration. The border security and employer (of illegal alien) sanction provision of IRCA were not enforced. So after eliminating the 3.5 million illegal aliens in the United States via the 1986 amnesty, the number of illegal aliens has swollen to 12 to 20 million in 20 years. Why? Because our government did not secure our borders and enforce employer sanctions as promised in the IRCA.
The Government Accounting Office (GAO) report dated March 6th, 2006 concludes that the agency that would be in charge of the proposed amnesty of 2006, the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service, is incapable of administering and enforcing the new amnesty, therefore condemning the proposed 2006 amnesty to failure from the start.
28% of prisoners in federal prisons are illegal aliens, according the United States Justice Department. Not all of those 12 to 20 million illegal aliens have come to America to work. Some have come to commit crimes.
Only 5% of those surveyed by the Pew Hispanic Center in December 2005, who have been in the U.S. for two years or less, were unemployed while still in Mexico . Unemployment plays a minimal role in motivating workers from Mexico to migrate to the U.S.
As to the "hard-working" claim, the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) notes: "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent compared to 16.3 percent for native households."
"President Bush and the Republican Senators echoing his wishes would like to correct us when by all appearances the forgiveness of crimes and tax fraud committed by illegal aliens looks like an amnesty. The President claims that it is not. In my opinion the penalty for illegal immigration is deportation; anything less is amnesty.
On light of the utter failure of America 's last attempt at granting amnesty, IRCA of 1986, there must not be any talk of Guest Worker programs until our borders are secured, employer sanctions are enforced and the last illegal immigrant has left or has been deported from our land."
38. Comment by Jim W. (JW)— April 10,2007 @ 7:59AM
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Bush: Border security working
Yeah right. You sound a lot like John McCain.
We didn't believe this either: BAGHDAD — After a heavily guarded visit to a Baghdad market, Sen. John McCain insisted Sunday that a U.S.-Iraqi security crackdown in the capital was working and said Americans lacked a "full picture" of the progress.
And this sounds a lot like President Bush.
39. Comment by J F. (AmVet)— April 10,2007 @ 8:01AM
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WASHINGTON, April 9 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Repeating the same tired
rhetoric about immigration that has used for more than six years, President
Bush in a speech in Yuma, Arizona, again called for a middle class-killing
guest worker program and an amnesty for illegal aliens. The president also
touted his modest achievements in the area of immigration enforcement, a
belated effort begun to gain credibility with the American public only
after his desired guest worker amnesty bill evoked nationwide opposition.
In his Yuma address, President Bush reiterated his assertion that
millions of new guest workers are needed to "do jobs Americans aren't
doing." The president also denied that his plan top legalize millions of
illegal aliens does is an amnesty, because they will be required to pay a
few modest fines, learn a bit of English and wait a while before receiving
citizenship.
"There was absolutely nothing new in President Bush's speech today,"
said Dan Stein, president of the Federation for American Immigration Reform
(FAIR). "It was filled with familiar promises of future enforcement, all of
which have been repeatedly broken by this and past administrations"
According to FAIR, the president's case for a massive new guest worker
program and an illegal alien amnesty are based on misleading half-truths
that he uses repeatedly. "When President Bush asserts that guest workers
are needed to 'do jobs Americans aren't doing,' he ignores the obvious fact
that Americans aren't given the opportunity to do certain jobs because they
are filled by lower wage illegal aliens. From New Bedford, Massachusetts,
to Greeley, Colorado, we have seen evidence that when immigration raids
clear out the illegal labor force, American workers have lined up for these
jobs.
"The last thing a country in which more than one-fifth of the adult
population is functionally illiterate, and in which low-skill, low-wage
workers are heavily subsidized, needs is a massive infusion of still more
unskilled, low-wage workers. The Bush guest worker plan amounts to a death
sentence for the American middle class," Stein stated.
In his speech, President Bush, yet again, offered the false choice of
mass deportation or mass legalization as the only two options available for
dealing with millions of illegal aliens living in the U.S. "President Bush
keeps asserting that we cannot deport 12 million people, even though no one
has seriously suggested that as an option. The alternative to amnesty is
not just deportation, but sustained and consistent border and interior
enforcement that convinced illegal aliens to leave on their own," Stein
said.
41. Comment by Carolyn G. (ahxsil)— April 10,2007 @ 8:10AM
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The bottom line is 'the bottom line'. Go to most any housing development where homes are being built and count the number of illegals there. Why would they pay $20+ an hour for Americans when they can pay $10 an hour for illegals? Not only are they saving $10 an hour but the taxes that they would have to put out for them also. Just exactly how many illegals are paying taxes? Better yet, how many would risk it all to try to collect taxes?
The first place to start is to enforce the laws on the books. Sanction any employer who has illegals working for them. Deport those people as you go. Now your on the road to recovery. If their are no jobs, they will deport themselves, and they will not be coming here looking for something that doesn't exist.
No more amnesty. Come here with a green card or don't come at all.
44. Comment by charlie a. (treehugger)— April 10,2007 @ 8:32AM
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I spent the last 15 years as a landscape contractor in Tucson. Before that 15 years in civil construction. I invite anyone who thinks they can run a landscape company without the use of hispanic workers to give it a try. You can run adds till you are blue in the face, you will get very few white, asian, native american or black laborers. Very few. Most of those that do apply will be gone in a week, especially when it hits 100 degrees in the shade. I do not pretend to know why this is the case, I only know that this was the case for the last 15 years. When you are sending a van every day to the labor centers hoping to hire someone that is not mentally ill or drunk that day and you find most of the landscapers in town doing the same thing then you know you have a severe lavor shortage. We have a severe labor shortage, Mexico has a severely depresed ecenomy and too many people. Seems like a logical solution to give them jobs they want and are capable of doing. Yes I know, there should be no rewards for law breakers. I was robbed of almost everything of value that I owned while I was living at Canoa Ranch by what was assumed to be illegal aliens. I do not hate every Mexican I see as a result of that incident. I have worked along side many very fine people that I respected and trusted that were probably here illegally. As our HR department was not trained in false documentation detection, and we did our very best at attempting to screen out any illegal applicants, we sometimes let some through our hiring process I am sure. The vast majority of hispanic workers I have worked with in over 30 years of construction in Tucson were good people. As I have said so many times in the past, this is an economics based problem that requires and economics based solution. Maybe we could start by allowing Mexican farmers to grow corn again in an economically feasible manner. Ah but ADM owns our congress so this is not likely to happen any time soon.
45. Comment by Stephen C. (Crow Dog)— April 10,2007 @ 8:33AM
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#37. Bush was invited to throw out the first baseball in the season opener. He declined. Could it be he was busy? Or, could it be his disenfranchisment of 70% of the American public would have been seen in a negative Press Photo-op? I don't think things can continue to go on with Bush's ignoring his public for much longer. From your post I take it you agree.
48. Comment by Ken O. (#2285)— April 10,2007 @ 9:05AM
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Let's adopt the successful practice of the Roman Empire: every illegal will be inducted into the Army, receive basic training, then be sent to fight in Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever else. They may earn bona fide citizenship in exchange. That way we can bring our American troops home. What's more we can reduce the cost of the war since illegals are willing to work for far less doing jobs Americans allegedly find distasteful. Sound fair?
Mexico's economy will do just the same, the US will collect tax dollars for a change, and we will not be subsidizing welfare for the nation of Mexico.
Once those troops are trained in mass, then we ought to invade Mexico to overthrow its centuries of corrupt governments and Catholic leaders. Making Mexico's rich oil fields Federal oil reserves would also lessen dependency on middle eastern oil.
49. Comment by Kathy S. (#4593)— April 10,2007 @ 9:06AM
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Who, exactly.. will be voting YES on Bush 'amnesty?'
Posters on this thread can whine and bash Bush into infinity, but that does nothing to stop pro-illegal alien amnesty from passage in Congress. Bush will push 'amnesty' to reward illegals already in the U.S. and with his words, encourage ever more to cross the border every time he speaks of 'comprehensive' immigration reform... but he will NOT be voting on any 'immigration' bill. That will be done by your members of Congress. How are your 'representative' employees voting on it? Do you even know? Look at their record on 'immigration' to see how they have voted in the past, it's the best way to determine how they will be voting on future 'immigration' legislation.
What I see here is a lot of people afraid of the rattle at the tail-end of the snake.. while ignoring its head where the fangs are. You don't kill the rattler by being afraid of the noise-maker at the end of it's tail, you gotta cut off it's head. The only way to do that is to convince your employees in Congress = who will be voting YES on 'amnesty' right along WITH Bush.. that they will not be supported in any future campaigns for political office, nor will they receive any contributions from you.
So..who are the Congressional supporters of Bush? I know who they are, do you?
I've done all that I can do to inform my employees in Congress that the 'comprehensive' immigration reform amnesty is bad for this country, it's citizens and especially it's VOTERS! Every one of my employees in Congress AGREES WITH ME! Do your employees agree with you? Isn't it about time to turn your attention to those who will actually be VOTING on 'amnesty?'
50. Comment by Robert L. (Zino)— April 10,2007 @ 9:14AM
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disgusting, plain and simple.
More disgusting? It would be the same or worse if Kerry had won.
No one on the horizon representing American citizens (with a few exceptions, but polling badly at this time) but tons of people with their own justification for obstructing and outright refusing to do the will of the people
55. Comment by Patrick B. (Pat Bishop)— April 10,2007 @ 9:34AM
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President Bush describes himself as a uniter, not a divider. Does he mean he intends to unite us with Mexico?
India recently completed a 4000 kilometer-long fence on its border with Bangladesh. India is concerned about the cultural impact illegal immigration is having on its border regions. Maybe Reverend Hoover can find a calling on the India-Bangladesh border.
58. Comment by MJ R. (Sailor50)— April 10,2007 @ 10:11AM
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#44...I thank you for pointing out that this is an economic issue. I see nothing wrong with a bracero program, but I see lots wrong with the current uncontrolled invasion by illegals. It further strikes me that the racism theme comes from Hispanics, mostly the illegal ones and a few short-sighted legal ones whose brains must be in their back pockets. Why can't they see that they are the ones hurt the most by millions of illegals???
59. Comment by Trent B. (Trent B)— April 10,2007 @ 10:19AM
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24 - It is an adult game of Whack-A-Mole.
On to a more serious note. . .While I am not going to preach about the border protection plans (or lack there of), this problem will never be solved. As long as our government caters to the poor by providing them a lifetime of medical insurance and food reimbursement plans, we will never completely alleviate the "illegal alien" issues.
While the border states do have jobs that many Americans WILL NOT do, we may need to implement strategies that still seem favorable to the Mexican population. Those strategies should also maintain strict policy that they do not receive healthcare or any other benefit of which Americans are entitled to.
The portion that worries me daily is the inflation rate. While congress elected to raise minimum wage, we all pay the price of inflation. If we completely eliminate all illegal immigration activity, we may steer ourselves into an irreversible overinflated economy where the key essentials to survival become luxuries to the middle class.
Several thousand Americans drive more than an hour to work. Mexico is an hour away. If work is what they desire, I say provide transportation twice a day. If their rights are stripped leaving no liability to the local businesses, both sides win.
60. Comment by Tom F. (NoBull)— April 10,2007 @ 10:26AM
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And as usual, the peanut gallery never asked one single, solitary, question of this new and improved, "tough-as-nails-on-illegals" president, pertaining to Ramos and Compean.
The so-called "media" that follows George of the Bungle around asking him hardball questions like, "What do you think of the weather here in Yuma, Mr. President"?, makes me every bit as sick to my stomach as this fool does.
61. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 11:01AM
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Bush's immigrating reform plan, like all these other "reform" plans, are going to fail because they are too complicated. They are too complicated because they are trying to trick us into believing that they are not an amnesty.
So what if illegals have to pay this, or do that, the end result will be that they broke the law but they will be rewarded by being allowed to stay. No to fake immigration reform plans. Yes to honest, fair enforcement of our immigration laws.
If you want to do something about it, contact your representative in congress. The FAIR website has all the contact info. Its web address is: http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer
64. Comment by Christine M. (Never2old2Learn)— April 10,2007 @ 11:22AM
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#45
Bush didn't accept the offer to throw out the first Baseball in the season opening game....
because he couldn't get any military
to pose as a backdrop in the photo.
65. Comment by Joan T. (roaxle)— April 10,2007 @ 11:26AM
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If you are reading this now, that means you are not risking your life sneaking across the border, nor are you in a refugee camp in Darfur, nor drinking polluted water in a South American rainforest. You are probably safely ensconced in the United States, bemoaning the hordes of illegal immigrants who are not like you. And they are not like you because of AN ACCIDENT OF BIRTH.
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
--Luke 12:48
66. Comment by Jim W. (JW)— April 10,2007 @ 11:37AM
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#63 Christine M.
Your comment raises several questions. How do you know that they're Mexicans? If they are Mexicans, then how do you know that they are not Mexican-Americans (emphasis on American)? I suggest that you increase your exposure to more Mexican-Americans. You'll be delighted - they don't like ILLEGAL aliens either.
67. Comment by Tom B. (off2glamis)— April 10,2007 @ 11:40AM
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Charlie A #44,
As an ex-business owner I know exactly where you are coming from. Also as a teenager I worked on a few of my uncle’s ranches and orchards in the San Joaquin Valley in California. He grew pecans, walnuts, almonds, grapes, nectarines and peaches all on hundreds of acres.
There would be more than a hundred or more illegal’s at any given time during harvest season. Although the unemployment rate in the area was among the highest in the country.
I am 110 percent against illegal immigration. But peaches will not pick them self’s. White, Black and Yellow people refuse to take these jobs. If you have ever spent an hour in a peach tree you might understand why they take welfare, food stamps etc. etc. rather then take a job on a ranch or orchard.
How many times have you been driving on I-10 or I-8 and seen a white person out in the field picking anything. You will see a white person on the tractor or machinery.
These illegal’s were hard working and worked for minimum wage or less. There was no crime other than they were here illegally.
The illegal’s I am talking about are not the one’s you see on TV protesting anything. They worked for substandard wages and would go back to Mexico after harvest with what little money they made working 12-16 hour days 7 days a week to provide for there families and return the next year at harvest time.
To be honest if I could cross a border and make 10 times what I am making now and my family was living in poverty I would do so.
What I do not like to see is all the illegal’s all lumped into one group. There are defiantly two types of illegal crossers. Group 1 the hard working group. Group 2 the ones that cross to take advantage of all the freebies the government is so willing to hand out.
In my opinion take away the freebies such as welfare, food stamps, health care, section 8 housing etc. etc.. And that might just work better then a fence or an ill-conceived immigration policy.
OUR BORDERS MUST BE PROTECTED AT ALL COST. But surly someone can come with a plan that will let group 1 do there thing and as far as group 2 goes stop giving our hard earned money (taxes) away for nothing but USA bashing, drug smuggling, gangs and crime.
I do not have the answer. I just needed to vent a little about nothing that makes any since being offered up by our government.
68. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 11:42AM
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Joan, most illegal are here "because of AN ACCIDENT OF BIRTH." They just happened to have been born in a country that is south of us. Do you think that they should receive special, preferential treatment over people from "Darfur" or "South America"?
That is what illegal immigration is doing now. It is mostly rewarding law breaking, illegal aliens that just happen come form a country that is geographically close to us. Shouldn't all the world's people get an equal and fair shot at legal immigration to the US?
69. Comment by Joel S. (NativeSon)— April 10,2007 @ 11:44AM
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#50 How could it be worse? The GOP has given the keys to the Nation away. What else is there to offer?
I'm glad to see though that most Republicians aren't out getting fitted for sombreros. I'm sure a few will though. After all, it's much more fun to bash others and pretend to be some part of a multi-national elite that admit that one has been betrayed and the American people sold down the river.
70. Comment by Joan T. (roaxle)— April 10,2007 @ 11:55AM
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#68. Comment by Ron K. (Average American) says:
Do you think that they should receive special, preferential treatment over people from "Darfur" or "South America"?
I would like to see us tone down the hateful rhetoric. I would like to see us stop exploitiing other people and their resources around the world. I would like to see us look for some positive approaches to encourage Mexicans to stay home. I would like to see an immigration policy that is not so onerous.
They are our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. I would like to see us treat them as such.
71. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 11:56AM
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I agree with Joel (#50). Kerry is would be no worse than Bush. Americans for Better Immigration, A group that supports the fight against illegal immigration gives Kerry a "D" grade. It doesn't have a grade for Bush but I very much doubt that it would be higher than "D".
Gore receives an "A-". If he would have been elected, we probably wouldn't even be in this illegal immigration mess right now.
The "Immigration Report Cards" are at:
http://www.betterimmigration.com/index.html
73. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 12:05PM
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Joan by saying that, "They are our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. I would like to see us treat them as such." are you justifying preferential treatment for Mexicans and/or Hispanics.
I can't agree with that because I don't think that a group of people should be given preferential or prejudicial treatment because of their ethnicity. Giving preferential treatment to Hispanics would mean that we would have to give prejudicial treatment against Africans, Asians, Europeans, etc. that want to come here legally, because they are the wrong color or race. Everyone should be treated equally.
74. Comment by lance s. (#5855)— April 10,2007 @ 12:32PM
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Democrats, pick your reason NOT to support "comprehensive" immigration reform:
1). Its consequences would be rapid and disastrous, affecting Americans extremely adversely in their daily lives, and they would realize that the legislation was a fraud designed to accelerate, not mitigate, illegal immigration anarcy. Consequently, open-borders incumbents in Congress will be swept out of office in large numbers in 2008, shifting control out of the hands of the Democrats and Bushies and into the hands of populists, primarily those of Republican affiliation, thus returning control of Congress to the Republicans.
2). "Comprehensive" immigration reform would usher in a golden age of an immigration system that's compassionate yet well-regulated. Americans would rejoice, and George Bush would be hailed as one of the great Presidents of all time, with his achievement on immigration overshadowing all his failures on other issues. Democrats who helped enact Bush's immigration plan thus would have help George Bush achieve sainthood.
--------
Both of these are arguments you see in the media (although I have dramatized them a bit)
I think most people recognize that scenario 2 is out in la-la-land.
But, hey, if you really think "comprehensive" immigration reform is going to make things better in this country rather than to cause massive damage, then 2 would seem to follow.
So, whether you agree with 1 or 2, EVERYONE should be against "comprehensive" immigration reform, except for Bush and his wing of the Republican Party.
75. Comment by lance s. (#5855)— April 10,2007 @ 12:35PM
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In response to Joan:
How is it treating neighbors with respect to consider them so lacking in personal ethics that we assume they have no ability to recognize that it is wrong to cross into someone else's nation without permission?
76. Comment by lance s. (#5855)— April 10,2007 @ 12:36PM
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Kerry would have been better than Bush.
The Republicans in Congress would not have let him get away with the kind of negligence on border policy that Bush has engaged in.
Kerry would have known that from day one and would probably have been smart enough to engage in at least a moderate amount of border enforcement so as not to provide the Republicans with an avenue of attack.
In contrast, Bush figured he could get away with ANYTHING, and he was right.
78. Comment by T.J. H. (tjharrison)— April 10,2007 @ 2:10PM
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The credible studies I have read indicate that a large majority of the people who are in this country illegally came here legally on student visas, work visas and the like and have simply not left the country when their allotted time expired.
All of the border fences and walls we can build and all of the guards and soldiers we station at the border will not address this issue. Is there any effort being made to track people whose visas have expired? Not that I can see.
Without addressing myself to the need for or advisability of immigration in general, I submit that dealing only with keeping people from coming across our border with Mexico largely impacts poor, undereducated, underemployed Hispanics whether that is the intention or not.
79. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 2:15PM
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Did anyone else notice that the news media isn't paying much attention to Bush's immigration reform efforts? That's good as far as I'm concerned. I hope no "reform" (i.e. legalization of illegals) is passed at the federal level. I hope the raids and ramp up of border enforcement continue. Then we will get to vote on anti-illegal immigration measures at the state level.
At least two ballot propositions are in the works to crack down on illegal immigration. One called the LAW initiative (for Legal Arizona Workers) would force employers to verify employees ID through the Federal Basic Pilot program and the other (the SOLE initiative; for Support Our Law Enforcement) would require state and local police ask for proof of citizenship during their normal duties and turn over illegals to the Border Patrol. Both will pass easily, and if an activist judge doesn't overturn them, they will be a very effective way of reducing the number illegal aliens here.
80. Comment by Ron K. (Average American)— April 10,2007 @ 2:23PM
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TJ, I am pretty sure that is about half and half, crossers verses overstayers, but no one knows for sure. But the illegal crossers are a bigger concern because they are truly undocumented. At least the overstayers had been checked out first. You never know what you get with an illegal crosser.
86. Comment by Tom F. (NoBull)— April 10,2007 @ 4:03PM
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67. Comment by Tom -
Not to pick on you tom but I just finished reading your post.
"How many times have you been driving on I-10 or I-8 and seen a white person out in the field picking anything. White, Black and Yellow people refuse to take these jobs."
This example is no barometer for making any point about why illegals pick vegetables or fruit.
First of all illegals have been stealing American jobs for as long as people like your uncle have been illegally hiring them. Decades and decades.
Guys like your uncle break the law by hiring them because as you yourself say, the wages he pays are crap. Then your uncle agrees to hire job-stealing, low-balling illegals because he is too cheap, with his "pecans, walnuts, almonds, grapes, nectarines and peaches all on hundreds of acres."
to pay a livable, working wage, to American workers. Of any color.
This is the exact reason employers who hire illegals should be arrested right along-side the illegals and hauled off to jail for conspiring to, by system of organized "cheap-hood", prevent American workers from making a decent wage for a back-breaking days work. On top of that, they should be jailed for exploiting illegal workers by enticing them to work for the very same peanuts they pick, for performing the very same back-breaking days work.
As far as the old, "but my uncle didn't make any money himself", forget that! If they cannot survive economically without resorting to screwing American workers over for illegal aliens that are reaping havoc all across this nation, then they should get the h*** out of the business!
88. Comment by Kathy S. (#4593)— April 10,2007 @ 4:29PM
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Tom B. #67: " In my opinion take away the freebies such as welfare, food stamps, health care, section 8 housing etc. etc.. And that might just work better then a fence or an ill-conceived immigration policy. "
Know exactly what you're talking about, as I also grew up back in the 50's in an agro area. Back then, and where I lived, it was poor whites and blacks working in the orchards and fields. But not after the 'Great Society' welfare-for-votes plan was passed. History has repeated itself, when this 'generosity' was extended to non-citizens, and now the majority of illegal immigrants aren't working in the fields either.
IMO, most of us were not terribly opposed to helping our fellow citizens during the 'Great Society' era. However in this era, our politicians should be legislating a halt to forced taxpayer funding of housing, feeding, educating, medicating and incarcerating millions who are now here via ignoring exisiting immigration laws.
If this most recent legislation is passed, it will break the backs of the middle class = the segment of taxpayers forced to support, tolerate and compete with massive, and legalized 'cheap' labor. Billions of poor in the third-worlds are holding their breath waiting for this shoe to drop, so they can rush on in for a bountiful existance as compared to where they now live = because in this era, it isn't just Mexicans who will be taking advantage of this proposed free-4-all. It would be 'racist' to assume otherwise. This is an unfair and uneccessary 'advantagous' reward for violating our laws as their first act after stepping foot on U.S. soil.
When you add up all the benefits obtainable through our social welfare programs, and then throw free medical at our ER/trauma centers on top, plus working off the books under an 'assumed' cheap-labor alias, you get a nice subsidized untaxed 'wage' existance, which unfairly burdens those who can afford it the least. And history will repeat itself again with more illegal labor willing to work for lower wages than the benificiaries of this next amnesty, knowing full well all they have to do is wait for the next amnesty.. in the not too distant future.
As many in Congress, in the media and in homes across the country debate the best way to stem the flow of undocumented workers across the Rio Grande, they don’t seem to be aware that this perceived problem is becoming increasingly irrelevant. In fact, the immigration concern of the future could well be how to entice Mexicans and other Latin Americans to cross into the U.S. in the numbers we need.
According to Ms. O'Neil, the whole illegal immigration question is soon to be moot. Read if you dare.
92. Comment by Kathy S. (#4593)— April 10,2007 @ 5:12PM
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Joel S. #69: " I'm glad to see though that most Republicians aren't out getting fitted for sombreros. I'm sure a few will though."
Right about that Joel, at least it's a 'very few'.. unlike the majority of 'sombrero' wearing Congressional Dems who 'ride' WITH Bush on this 'amnesty' (ever see Dems vote against any amnesty?). If you're not aware of that reality, seek and you will find the truth, or put your head back in the sand and keep pretending you're represented by people who serve your interests first and foremost.
94. Comment by Kathy S. (#4593)— April 10,2007 @ 7:01PM
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IMHO, Joel.. it's inexcusable in this age of accessable and easy to obtain facts & knowledge, that there are still voters who refuse to face the reality of what 'is' and what is not:
" Unfortunately, for the large Democratic part of our NumbersUSA membership, I have to say that the Democratic leadership in Congress has already agreed that it is willing to sell out Americans on immigration. Our only hope is to get most Republicans to resist. If we do, there are many indications that the Democratic leaders will get cold feet about bringing the amnesty to a vote for fear that voters will vote them out of the majority in '08. The Democratic leaders need enough Republicans joining in the sell-out to offer them political cover. " ~ quote numbersusa = citizens ADVOCATE organization
And this right from the horses mouth: " Cecilia Munoz, senior vice president of the National Council of LaRaza, noted that the council had representatives from 32 states lobbying Congress this week on immigration and "it's hard to overstate the level of energy and enthusiasm." She added that both parties have a stake in a more successful outcome than in 2006, when the Senate and House passed divergent immigration bills and no conference committee was convened.
The Democrats feel pressure to show "they can deliver legislation that the country is demanding" while Republicans are fighting for "the soul of the party" and the votes of a growing Latino electorate, Munoz said. When some Republicans sought to ride voters' perceived anti-immigrant sentiment to victory in the 2006 election, Munoz said, "they overwhelmingly failed." "
Personally, I believe Ms. Munoz will be surprised by the next election, when she sees it's a majority of 'Americans' who will vote to oppose immporting an unfair advantage for the middle class, and not 'party' affiliation that's driving the voters to the polls. Maybe I should say I 'hope' that's the case.
95. Comment by Joel S. (NativeSon)— April 10,2007 @ 7:14PM
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Yeah, yeah, and Bush & the GOP did what for the situation from 2001-2006? Quit defending the twit you voted for twice. He's sold us out, lock, stock and barrel!
97. Comment by Tom F. (NoBull)— April 10,2007 @ 9:42PM
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I wish I'd seen your post there Charlie before I went off so hard on poor Tom. Compared to his post, yours is the mother of all illegal hiring B.S.
44. Comment by charlie -
"We have a severe labor shortage" ---
It is patently false to say the United States has a "severe labor shortage" with over 300 million people living here. The problem, as I said before, is our employers have gotten so used to paying low-ball wages to illegals and padding their own pockets with the difference, they only seem to be able to say things like "labor shortage, labor shortage", when asked why they don't hire Americans.
"We should be extremely hesitant about using illegal immigrants to loosen labor markets. As we all learned in college economics, when a supply increases, its value decreases." (In reference to what becomes of the hourly wages that American laborors make once illegal aliens begin to flood into the American labor market and become routinely hired by American employers.) - David North, Director of the Center for Labor and Migration Studies
"Despite the cries of labor shortages by many American employers today, we have seen that the wages and working conditions in affected regions and occupations have not changed appreciably. ... I would be concerned about establishing whole new [immigration] mechanisms for employers to claim labor shortages to deal with what they see as their ability not to recruit workers at their current pay levels and working conditions. They're (illegals) new avenues to basically have a low-wage solution to an economic problem rather than a high-wage solution, which I think in the long run more beneficial to the country."
- Economist Lawrence Mishel in testimony concerning possible illegal immigrant work visa programs, 2007.
"Mexico has a severely depresed ecenomy and too many people..." - Charlie
This, of course, is definitely NOT the problem of the United States, This is a problem for the mexican people, who should stay in their own country and go to work fixing their OWN countries problems. Just like Americans have always worked on ours.
"anyone who thinks they can run a landscape company without the use of hispanic workers to give it a try."
First of all, you keep referring to illegal aliens as "hispanics workers". You should really work on your terminology so you can use it correctly. You cannot lump all hispanics together with illegal aliens. But if you cannot run a business without paying low-ball wages to illegals then you are right. You should not be in the business.
"our HR department was not trained in false documentation detection."
Charlie, there is a government agency in this country known as the Social Security Administration. Here's how it works. Been this way for decades. A new employee gives his boss his social security number and then you , the boss, sends it on a form into the Social Security Adm. and requests verification of this persons number. i.e."Does the number match the name?" Takes a week to ten days to get your list of names back. I know all this because I used to work for Social Security.
Finally, I notice you have a habit of using terms like "many very fine people" in reference to the illegals. As well as, "good people". This isn't about how "good" or "fine" the illegals are as a people. This problem is so far reaching, that a few, "boy they're good people" and "man are they nice!" , just isn't going to cut it when it comes time to remodel your new house because the illegals working on the hod were used to mixing it a little less carefully where they came from. Or that drywall hanger liked to miss the furring strips too often when he used his nail gun and the wall is separating from the framing. And on and on.
The bottom line is Charlie, it is not so simplistic as "we need workers because there aren't any", because the fact is that is totally untrue. In the future, you or others who do the hiring in construction, or landscaping or hospitality, are going to face serious consequences of your own if you continue to hire job-stealing, low-balling, illegal aliens.
And personally, I hope I am there when they put the cuffs on whoever did the hiring and leads them away. Hiring illegals over Americans? I suggest you and the other employers quit being such greedy tight wads and cough up the correct AMERICAN hourly wages. THEN we'll see how much of a "labor shortage" there is.
98. Comment by Don A. (El Don)— April 10,2007 @ 10:08PM
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#95 Joel - I couldn't agree more. The simpletons who support Bush are mind boggling in their idiocy.
I'm an ardent independent but stayed mostly on the republican side, problem is now, they are so corrupted by special interests and holy rollers, it's not the same republican party. The Republican party is now big government and is totally corrupt...
I seriously wonder about the IQ of people I meet who are card carrying members of the republican party. I figure they are just uninformed or on the take with some government program, working for Haliburton or something...
The 33% of supporters of the current regime really ought to get their heads out of their a$$es...
99. Comment by Tom F. (NoBull)— April 10,2007 @ 10:16PM
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98. Comment by Don -
"I seriously wonder about the IQ of people I meet who are card carrying members of the republican party. I figure they are just uninformed or on the take..."
That is the exact same way I feel about the democrats. They came into this thing last november with a mandate from the people! Repubs and dems alike. They have not done one single g-damn thing, about ANYTHING since they have been in.
100. Comment by Jim W. (JW)— April 10,2007 @ 10:40PM
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#91 Joan T.
You said: According to Ms. O'Neil, the whole illegal immigration question is soon to be moot.
Interesting article by Shannon O'Neil. I hope she is correct. You will have to pardon my skepticism when there is so much information that contradicts her position. Have you seen what Mexico's new ambassador to the U.S. has to say?
"Even if there was a wildly positive immigration reform tomorrow, that is not going to do the trick of diminishing the migrant flows of Mexicans to the United States." As usual, you will have to substitute the term ILLEGAL alien for the term migrant to fully appreciate what he is saying.
102. Comment by Jim W. (JW)— April 10,2007 @ 11:22PM
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#101 Tom F.
When I read that article about what Arturo Sarukhan said, it sounded like a challenge to me. He essentially said that the ILLEGAL aliens are going to continue to invade our country whether we like it or not - and there's not a damn thing we can do about it.
103. Comment by Annette K. (mdwstgrl)— April 10,2007 @ 11:47PM
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You know, I am constantly amused by employers who claim that "no American citizen will apply for a job working in the fields, in landscaping, construction, etc."
I live in a small rural town in the midwest, and we have few illegal immigrants living in my community. Our farmers, landscapers, and construction businesses manage very well without the use of illegal labor...some are, in fact, very wealthy.
Why is it that employers in many of our border states find it impossible to find good workers, though they "claim" to first offer American citizens these jobs for good wages? I seriously doubt that the American citizens living in our border states are lazier or less productive than those in my community, yet we have never had a shortage of good, American workers. So it leads me to conclude that these employers are motivated by greed, or they are simply incompetent and shouldn't be in business in the first place.
My own father was part owner of a construction firm, who found no need to hire illegals, and paid American workers $20-$30 per hour with good benefits. The business was, and still is, very successful, and my father was able to retire early and travel the world with no financial worries. He has often said that his greatest satisfaction in business was the ability to provide his workers with a good living in exchange for their hard labor.
My ex-husband's family are farmers who have made millions without ever hiring illegal aliens. They do, however, hire high school kids and other American citizens to help out during the hot, humid summers...at a wage of about $20 an hour.
I, myself, have worked at a grocery store, as a waitress at a restaurant, cleaning at a bed and breakfast, and caring for children. My children, while in high school, have hauled hay in the fields, worked for a local landscaper, at a gas station, at an ice cream shop, in a nursing home, and as a child care worker...WE are American citizens, and we HAVE done many of the jobs our corporate elite and politicians say "Americans won't do."
That said, I fully support those of any race or ethnic/cultural background who wish to LEGALLY immigrate to the U.S., and like the majority of American citizens, will never advocate any amnesty/guest worker legislation.
105. Comment by Ed W. (edweirdness)— April 11,2007 @ 2:49PM
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#44
Obviously, if landscape companies paid what this sort of work was worth, Americans would take these jobs. However, many home owners, businesses, apartment complexes would also realize how expensive this sort of work was getting to be, and either do the work themselves, hire college or high school kids who desperately need the money, or simply "landscape" appropriately for their region. With 100 + degree days its no wonder that Americans wont take a job paying minimum wage plus. It is a puzzlement though why any moron would fight mother nature for the sake of making his McMansion look like it's in Oak park Illinois rather than Tuscon Arizona.
Certainly some people can make a living taking advantage of this sort of person, but pretending that "landscaping the desert" constitutes some important service that the community "needs" borders on the ridiculous. I have neighbors who whine bitterly about trying to find someone to mow their lawn (for what they are willing to pay), yet these same people are too busy "tanning" and "playing Tennis" to drag the mower a few passes across the yard once a week themselves. I would note that these are the same people who's teenage children have carpal tunnel and bed sores from sitting on their "fat A _ _ watching TV and playing video games.
Any business that cannot compete using American workers, probably lacks the products, innovation, or management skills to remain an on-going concern anyway. Certainly not at the expense of America's workers and tax payers.
Let's face it, in an increasingly competitive "dog eat dog" world, not every little thing that someone with money doesn't want to do for themselves justifies building a business to do it for them. If all landscapers had to use legal American workers, none would have an unfair advantage to use illegals. Yes the price they charge would go up, and some lendscapers will doubtless go out of business. And yes, some people might have to learn how to push a mower once in a while. I'm not seeing how any of this justifies violating our immigration laws, burdening American tax payers, etc....
Hard as it may be for those in the business to accept, hiring a landscaper only makes sense for people who are too wealthy and too lazy to do it themselves. And I can't even pretend to speculate as to what kind of job someone would have had to be a failure at doing that would make violating our immigration laws to eek out an existance as a landscaper seem like a worhwhile endeavor. Just because you enjoy working in the soil doesn't mean that you deserve to get paid for it! I'd love to fly the space shuttle, but that doesn't mean anyone's gonna pay me to do it!
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Bush: Border security working
YUMA — President Bush returned to this Southwestern Arizona border region Monday nearly a year after his last visit to tout progress the U.S. Border Patrol has made in slowing illegal traffic since he sent the National Guard to the border last June.[This comment has been removed]
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Oh my God! Not only do I agree with Reverend Hoover, so does Glenn Spencer, president of the Cochise County-based American Border Patrol
bq. In order to make a point, the government has devoted unprecedented resources in the Yuma area that it couldn't duplicate along the rest of the border, said Glenn Spencer, president of the Cochise County-based American Border Patrol, a non-governmental organization that keeps tabs on the Border Patrol.
bq. "It is merely a dog-and-pony show," said Spencer, who recently flew over Yuma in his organization's plane.
Bush is "trying to convince the American people that the border is or will soon be under control so he will gain acceptance for his guest-worker program," Spencer added.
They are both right, only yesterday we were told of the Cochise County illegal crossings surge
It's clear this surge is illegal alien encouraged by the promises of amnesty disguised as a "guest-worker program" and "a path to legalization for some for the estimated 10 million to 12 million illegal entrants", btw is a dishonest liberal term for illegal aliens, the liberal substitutes illegal alien with "entrants" because they think you are to stupid to notice the slight of hand.
But then Reverend Hover goos off the deep end...
"we"? You may want them here but I do not.
I ask you this Reverend Hoover, how many invading illegal aliens have you or your group lured to their death thinking you or your group will save them from their own folly of trying to walk across a deadly desert?
We don't need a carrot, that carrot is you Reverend and the criminal law breaking employers who lure them here.
What we need is to take the carrot away, both of them.
We can arrest the employers, but what can we do with your type?
Charge you with manslaughter for luring people to their death with the promises of water, food and aid many never find perhaps?
This has been said many times over..
build a border land tent city prison for illegal aliens and the "carrot" people who lure them here.
Make the captured illegal aliens spend a year building the much needed fence which regardless of what Bush says is not being built to and meaningful measure and make them pick up the trash they are destroying our fragile desert with.
The arrested employers of illegal aliens can spend a year supervising the building of the fence while to clueless do-gooders who help illegal aliens can help them pick up the trash.
After a year in a labor camp deport the illegal aliens, they will be unlikely willing to come back for two years in prison. If the employers again hire illegal aliens confiscate their business and holding to pay for the damage they are doing to Americans.
Once illegal aliens can no longer get work or help they will self deport, no need for big round ups of the up to 30 million already here.
Offering invaders amnesty will only increase the flood bringing it to at least 50 million.
Offering criminals citizenship as a reward for breaking the law makes a mockery of the legal immigrants who come here the correct way, waiting their turn, paying all the fees and jumping through all the hoops.
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[This comment has been removed]
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somebody should tell mexico the border is "secure now"
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What? No Republicians heaping blame on the Democrats for this? They must be in shock!
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Here are Ten Principles for Immigration Reform that do not involve amnesty for illegal aliens.
"The United States Government Accountability Office (GAO) has dealt the fatal blow to the controversial concept of Guest Worker Amnesty to 12 million illegal aliens now living in the United States in defiance of our laws. The GAO is the Investigative arm of Congress charged with examining matters relating to the receipt and payment of public funds. In a devastating report released March 14th, the GAO charges the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) - this is the agency under the Department of Homeland Security that would be in charge of proposed Guest Worker Amnesty - with a failed organizational infrastructure and massive mismanagement and corruption." -- GAO Report: The Death Blow to Guest Worker Amnesty
Any "immigration reform" must include certain and effective prosection of illegal aliens. As a recent story in the Arizona Daily Star reported, "For all the tough talk out of Washington on immigration, illegal entrants caught along the Mexican border have almost no reason to fear they will be prosecuted. Ninety-eight percent of those arrested between Oct. 1, 2000, and Sept. 30, 2005, were never prosecuted, according to an Associated Press analysis of federal data. Those crossers, more than 5 million, were simply escorted back across the border and released. Many presumably tried to slip into the U.S. again." -- Prosecution little threat to illegal entrants
"The Heritage Foundation report calculates that for every $1 unskilled workers pay in taxes they receive about $3 in government benefits, including Medicaid, food stamps, public housing and other welfare programs. It should serve as a warning to President Bush and lawmakers proposing to give illegal aliens a so-called path to citizenship or what critics call amnesty, said Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, ranking Republican on the Judiciary Committee, which handles immigration bills." -- Study: Unskilled alien workers a drain on taxpayers
Bush's latest push for amnesty for illegal aliens is in total disregard of the best interests of American citizens.
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Stay the course on illegal immigration strategy.
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3 are "impotents" for impocamping?
I'm not tense about your spelling, just intent on being amused that you forgot that it's spelled impotence.
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So, how does Bush explain this:
BISBEE — After nearly two years of declining numbers, illegal border-crossings took a sudden jump last month in Cochise County, law enforcement officials say.
Gustavo Soto, a spokesman for the Border Patrol’s Tucson Sector, said agents at the Naco, Douglas and Willcox stations apprehended just over 13,000 illegal immigrants last month, a 30 percent increase over March 2006. Prior to the spike, Border Patrol apprehensions in the county had been down 13 percent since the current fiscal year began on Oct. 1. That decline followed a 45 percent drop during the previous year.
Illegal border activity jumps
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Vern 8, I threw that misspelling in so you will have something to post about other then your asinine one line BS.
Mission accomplished.
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Very good points J F #6 and Dave #9
Bush should be impeached for refusing to do his job of defending our borders from this invasion by 10s of millions of criminals.
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10 Since it's "Mission Accomplished" I assume that means 4+ more years of the same from you too? Nice flight suit, by the way.
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11 said: "Bush should be impeached for refusing to do his job of defending our borders from this invasion by 10s of millions of criminals. "
And that's just the FIRST entry on the bill of particulars for the trial.
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Maybe Bush should pick up and read a newspaper.
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Dave P asks "So, how does Bush explain this: After nearly two years of declining numbers, illegal border-crossings took a sudden jump last month"
Bush clearly explained that when he visited the border in 2005 , saying: "And one of the best examples of success is the Arizona Border Control Initiative, which the government launched in 2004. In the first year of this initiative -- now, listen to this, listen how hard these people are working here -- agents in Arizona apprehended nearly 500,000 illegal immigrants, a 42-percent increase over the previous year."
See, when the numbers go down or go up, its always good news for this pollyanna administration!
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Good point Scott 15
And yet the pro illegal alien bunch buy into it every time.
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make the illegal aliens build a stretch of border fence on their way back to old mexico
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It's only working if you like more government doing nothing more than before
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One tent city along the border won't work. We need DOZENS of them strewn along the border to host the cleanup crew (also known as illegal aliens).
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It really doesn't matter now what Bush has to say about anything. The American public has simply tuned him out. the first president to be ignored as "white noise." He could be replaced by an android programmed to shuffle, stammer and lie. No one would be any the wiser.
Except for Barney and maybe Laura. I'm not betting on Laura.
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I am applying to be Border Petrol.
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#20- Ha! Exactly! When words spew forth from Dubya's mouth, you know the truth is always the exact OPPOSITE of what he's saying...
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#21 Pablo,
Are you serious? If you are, more power to you. I applaud your effort.
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Border Security Working--
--yeah, working just like the surge. Crack down here, they pop up there.
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Spin Doctor Bush believes that if you tell the people what you want them to believe often enough, they will believe anything they are told. There should be a song called Lie Me A River playing in the background every time he holds a press conference.
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Hoover, of Humane Borders says: "We need to face up to the fact that we basically let all these people in here because we wanted them here."
The "we" is actually greedy business persons that want to illegally depress wages; not the majority of Americans. It is very dishonest of Hoover to claim that Americans in general "wanted" illegals to come here. The majority of Americans want the very opposite. We the People have overwhelming supported anti-illegal immigrating measures. Americans want illegal immigration stopped and the border reasonably closed.
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OK, according to the President, we are not/can not send 12 million illegals back to Mexico.
According to the President we are going to sanction employers who hire them.
Does this mean that we will put them all on welfare?
Am I missing something here?
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Not welfare, yesterday they were talking about tax returns that we the people/taxpayers will no doubt be funding.
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The president said a temporary-worker program is needed to address the underlying economic reasons for illegal immigration. Many illegal entrants come to take the jobs "Americans are not doing," he said.
What a joke!! Cheap labor at low wages. That is what he means!
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So, Bush is basically bragging that he has gone from almost no internal enforcement and weak border enforcement to half-assed internal and border enforcement. I'm not impressed. Make a honest effort to make the border reasonably secure and a honest effort to enforce the current immigration laws and then, after a clear reduction of illegal immigration has occured, we can talk about a temporary worker program.
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If the politicians won't do the job, the people will..the kettle is starting to boil Folks and I believe the politicians are FINALLY realizing this as well as the long term problems with criminals invading the US.
Perhaps, a bit too late and not quite fast enough bit the ship is slowly starting to turn.
My advice: Get involved in your own way and be aware of the issues / problems, current and potential!
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If its working, why are there more illegal criminals working every day in Tucson?
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27. Nope, not missing a beat. It's all coming out of your wallet which is why we really ought to do everything in our power to send them back asap. Much, much cheaper in the long term to deport them. Employers who hire these illegal aliens should also be sent to the border tent cities as well, President Bush among them.
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Am I the only one who finds having a delusional martinet for President a little disconcerting? Considering the increased costs (more border patrol, National Guard, infrastructure) and given the marginal (perhaps seasonal) reductions in illegals passing through Yuma, we're getting damn little return on our investment. Cracking down on employers, job site raids, may make "illegal immigrants" uncomfortable (much the same as having a cop car follow you) but no one said breaking our laws should be "stress free"! Obviously liberals realize (the more Pelosi, Reid, or Kennedy talk, the more they realize) how tenuous their grip on either House of Congress is. Indeed, most rational people view last November not as a plebicite, but rather a reflection of House and Senate members getting what they deserve for not listening to their constituents. Obviously, Democrats have failed to learn from the Republican mistakes, so its a valid assumption that Liberals would seek to bolster their constituency among "immigrants".
Both this Administration and the majority of both Houses, RINO's included; are tragically misguided in their efforts to implement comprehensive immigration reforms. How on Earth can any sane person suggest that "more people chasing fewer resources" is in any way responsible immigration policy?
The best course for voters in all future elections would seem to be to "vote out everyone" at "every opportunity". By replacing Legislators as often as possible, we can stymie the culture of "self interest and cronyism" that serving numerous terms engenders. It also defuses the value of incumbency and money that prevents good, decent citizens from running for office!
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Here are a few quotations from Tony Dolz, a foreign-born Hispanic legal immigrant, now a naturalized citizen, who supports legal immigration and opposes illegal immigration:
"The most recent Pew Hispanic Center 's study indicates that 97% of 12 to 20 million illegal aliens are working in construction, hospitality, manufacturing, restaurant, administrative and service jobs. Are these jobs that Americans will not do?"
"Let's be honest about this. The Senate Judiciary Committee amnesty proposal is in effect an amnesty for the criminal employers who have been avoiding employer sanctions since the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA). IRCA was America 's last failed attempt at granting amnesty to criminal aliens to stem the tide of illegal immigration. The border security and employer (of illegal alien) sanction provision of IRCA were not enforced. So after eliminating the 3.5 million illegal aliens in the United States via the 1986 amnesty, the number of illegal aliens has swollen to 12 to 20 million in 20 years. Why? Because our government did not secure our borders and enforce employer sanctions as promised in the IRCA.
The Government Accounting Office (GAO) report dated March 6th, 2006 concludes that the agency that would be in charge of the proposed amnesty of 2006, the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service, is incapable of administering and enforcing the new amnesty, therefore condemning the proposed 2006 amnesty to failure from the start.
28% of prisoners in federal prisons are illegal aliens, according the United States Justice Department. Not all of those 12 to 20 million illegal aliens have come to America to work. Some have come to commit crimes.
Only 5% of those surveyed by the Pew Hispanic Center in December 2005, who have been in the U.S. for two years or less, were unemployed while still in Mexico . Unemployment plays a minimal role in motivating workers from Mexico to migrate to the U.S.
As to the "hard-working" claim, the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) notes: "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent compared to 16.3 percent for native households."
"President Bush and the Republican Senators echoing his wishes would like to correct us when by all appearances the forgiveness of crimes and tax fraud committed by illegal aliens looks like an amnesty. The President claims that it is not. In my opinion the penalty for illegal immigration is deportation; anything less is amnesty.
On light of the utter failure of America 's last attempt at granting amnesty, IRCA of 1986, there must not be any talk of Guest Worker programs until our borders are secured, employer sanctions are enforced and the last illegal immigrant has left or has been deported from our land."
Source: 3% of Illegal Aliens Do Low-Paid Stoop Agricultural Labor;
the Remaining 97% Take Jobs That Americans Want and Need
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Here we go folks.....down the tubes:
On Monday, Bush outlined a four-point plan to tackle the causes and consequences of the flood of illegal crossings. His plan would:
• Add resources to secure the border.
• Repatriate illegal immigrants but allow them citizenship if they pay a fine.
• Create a guest-worker program to allow foreigners to work legally in the United States.
• Improve labor law enforcement by creating a tamperproof identity card.
Bush touts 4-point border plan
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It's a good thing Bush was speaking with federal employees about border security. Had it been the general public he would have been booed out of Yuma.
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Bush: Border security working
Yeah right. You sound a lot like John McCain.
We didn't believe this either:
BAGHDAD — After a heavily guarded visit to a Baghdad market, Sen. John McCain insisted Sunday that a U.S.-Iraqi security crackdown in the capital was working and said Americans lacked a "full picture" of the progress.
And this sounds a lot like President Bush.
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WASHINGTON, April 9 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Repeating the same tired
rhetoric about immigration that has used for more than six years, President
Bush in a speech in Yuma, Arizona, again called for a middle class-killing
guest worker program and an amnesty for illegal aliens. The president also
touted his modest achievements in the area of immigration enforcement, a
belated effort begun to gain credibility with the American public only
after his desired guest worker amnesty bill evoked nationwide opposition.
In his Yuma address, President Bush reiterated his assertion that
millions of new guest workers are needed to "do jobs Americans aren't
doing." The president also denied that his plan top legalize millions of
illegal aliens does is an amnesty, because they will be required to pay a
few modest fines, learn a bit of English and wait a while before receiving
citizenship.
"There was absolutely nothing new in President Bush's speech today,"
said Dan Stein, president of the Federation for American Immigration Reform
(FAIR). "It was filled with familiar promises of future enforcement, all of
which have been repeatedly broken by this and past administrations"
According to FAIR, the president's case for a massive new guest worker
program and an illegal alien amnesty are based on misleading half-truths
that he uses repeatedly. "When President Bush asserts that guest workers
are needed to 'do jobs Americans aren't doing,' he ignores the obvious fact
that Americans aren't given the opportunity to do certain jobs because they
are filled by lower wage illegal aliens. From New Bedford, Massachusetts,
to Greeley, Colorado, we have seen evidence that when immigration raids
clear out the illegal labor force, American workers have lined up for these
jobs.
"The last thing a country in which more than one-fifth of the adult
population is functionally illiterate, and in which low-skill, low-wage
workers are heavily subsidized, needs is a massive infusion of still more
unskilled, low-wage workers. The Bush guest worker plan amounts to a death
sentence for the American middle class," Stein stated.
In his speech, President Bush, yet again, offered the false choice of
mass deportation or mass legalization as the only two options available for
dealing with millions of illegal aliens living in the U.S. "President Bush
keeps asserting that we cannot deport 12 million people, even though no one
has seriously suggested that as an option. The alternative to amnesty is
not just deportation, but sustained and consistent border and interior
enforcement that convinced illegal aliens to leave on their own," Stein
said.
-- Bush Immigration Speech Calls for Same Old Illegal Alien Amnesty and Guest Worker Program, Says the Federation for American Immigration Reform
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Heck, President Bush is right.
Border security IS working.
He just didn't say who it was working FOR.
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The bottom line is 'the bottom line'. Go to most any housing development where homes are being built and count the number of illegals there. Why would they pay $20+ an hour for Americans when they can pay $10 an hour for illegals? Not only are they saving $10 an hour but the taxes that they would have to put out for them also. Just exactly how many illegals are paying taxes? Better yet, how many would risk it all to try to collect taxes?
The first place to start is to enforce the laws on the books. Sanction any employer who has illegals working for them. Deport those people as you go. Now your on the road to recovery. If their are no jobs, they will deport themselves, and they will not be coming here looking for something that doesn't exist.
No more amnesty. Come here with a green card or don't come at all.
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We need to take back this Nation of Laws and make the laws....WORK.
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#37, Jeremy L. - The same could be said for Tucson.
"We need to face up to the fact that we basically let all these people in here because we wanted them here."
Harry doesn't want them here, and neither do I or many thousands like us, but the fact is someone wants them here OR THEY WOULDN'T BE HERE.
Bush and his traitorous multi-national corporate buddies are the ones that want them here, and allow them to come.
Any other photo op is just a plug for the upcoming illegal alien guest invader worker 'amnesty' program.
Watch and see.
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I spent the last 15 years as a landscape contractor in Tucson. Before that 15 years in civil construction. I invite anyone who thinks they can run a landscape company without the use of hispanic workers to give it a try. You can run adds till you are blue in the face, you will get very few white, asian, native american or black laborers. Very few. Most of those that do apply will be gone in a week, especially when it hits 100 degrees in the shade. I do not pretend to know why this is the case, I only know that this was the case for the last 15 years. When you are sending a van every day to the labor centers hoping to hire someone that is not mentally ill or drunk that day and you find most of the landscapers in town doing the same thing then you know you have a severe lavor shortage. We have a severe labor shortage, Mexico has a severely depresed ecenomy and too many people. Seems like a logical solution to give them jobs they want and are capable of doing. Yes I know, there should be no rewards for law breakers. I was robbed of almost everything of value that I owned while I was living at Canoa Ranch by what was assumed to be illegal aliens. I do not hate every Mexican I see as a result of that incident. I have worked along side many very fine people that I respected and trusted that were probably here illegally. As our HR department was not trained in false documentation detection, and we did our very best at attempting to screen out any illegal applicants, we sometimes let some through our hiring process I am sure. The vast majority of hispanic workers I have worked with in over 30 years of construction in Tucson were good people. As I have said so many times in the past, this is an economics based problem that requires and economics based solution. Maybe we could start by allowing Mexican farmers to grow corn again in an economically feasible manner. Ah but ADM owns our congress so this is not likely to happen any time soon.
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#37. Bush was invited to throw out the first baseball in the season opener. He declined. Could it be he was busy? Or, could it be his disenfranchisment of 70% of the American public would have been seen in a negative Press Photo-op? I don't think things can continue to go on with Bush's ignoring his public for much longer. From your post I take it you agree.
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The answer to the illegal alien problem.
DEPORT! DEPORT! DEPORT! DEPORT!
24-7
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Yep. The border is secure.
The check is in the mail, I love you, and I promise not to......well, you know the rest.
I'll believe it when I see it.
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Let's adopt the successful practice of the Roman Empire: every illegal will be inducted into the Army, receive basic training, then be sent to fight in Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever else. They may earn bona fide citizenship in exchange. That way we can bring our American troops home. What's more we can reduce the cost of the war since illegals are willing to work for far less doing jobs Americans allegedly find distasteful. Sound fair?
Mexico's economy will do just the same, the US will collect tax dollars for a change, and we will not be subsidizing welfare for the nation of Mexico.
Once those troops are trained in mass, then we ought to invade Mexico to overthrow its centuries of corrupt governments and Catholic leaders. Making Mexico's rich oil fields Federal oil reserves would also lessen dependency on middle eastern oil.
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Who, exactly.. will be voting YES on Bush 'amnesty?'
Posters on this thread can whine and bash Bush into infinity, but that does nothing to stop pro-illegal alien amnesty from passage in Congress. Bush will push 'amnesty' to reward illegals already in the U.S. and with his words, encourage ever more to cross the border every time he speaks of 'comprehensive' immigration reform... but he will NOT be voting on any 'immigration' bill. That will be done by your members of Congress. How are your 'representative' employees voting on it? Do you even know? Look at their record on 'immigration' to see how they have voted in the past, it's the best way to determine how they will be voting on future 'immigration' legislation.
What I see here is a lot of people afraid of the rattle at the tail-end of the snake.. while ignoring its head where the fangs are. You don't kill the rattler by being afraid of the noise-maker at the end of it's tail, you gotta cut off it's head. The only way to do that is to convince your employees in Congress = who will be voting YES on 'amnesty' right along WITH Bush.. that they will not be supported in any future campaigns for political office, nor will they receive any contributions from you.
So..who are the Congressional supporters of Bush? I know who they are, do you?
I've done all that I can do to inform my employees in Congress that the 'comprehensive' immigration reform amnesty is bad for this country, it's citizens and especially it's VOTERS! Every one of my employees in Congress AGREES WITH ME! Do your employees agree with you? Isn't it about time to turn your attention to those who will actually be VOTING on 'amnesty?'
Here's a good place for FREE help in contacting your employees in Congress by sending them a FAX instructing them to NOT SUPPORT BUSH on any legislation that rewards or encourages illegal immigration
If you're done whining about Bush, click on the link and actually DO something to help halt this legislation.
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disgusting, plain and simple.
More disgusting? It would be the same or worse if Kerry had won.
No one on the horizon representing American citizens (with a few exceptions, but polling badly at this time) but tons of people with their own justification for obstructing and outright refusing to do the will of the people
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Bush knows for a fact that border security is working, the Easter Bunny told him so.
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Yeah, and "mission accomplished".
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#49 Kathy S.
In addition to your link to NumbersUSA, I would like to recommend another one:
Hold Their Feet to the Fire.
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I would like to know what border Bush visited and is referring to.
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President Bush describes himself as a uniter, not a divider. Does he mean he intends to unite us with Mexico?
India recently completed a 4000 kilometer-long fence on its border with Bangladesh. India is concerned about the cultural impact illegal immigration is having on its border regions. Maybe Reverend Hoover can find a calling on the India-Bangladesh border.
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What joy! A "border/mexico" article I'm allowed to comment on! Oh thank you, thank you Red Star!
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Charlie A #44,
Be honest. How much do you pay?
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#44...I thank you for pointing out that this is an economic issue. I see nothing wrong with a bracero program, but I see lots wrong with the current uncontrolled invasion by illegals. It further strikes me that the racism theme comes from Hispanics, mostly the illegal ones and a few short-sighted legal ones whose brains must be in their back pockets. Why can't they see that they are the ones hurt the most by millions of illegals???
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24 - It is an adult game of Whack-A-Mole.
On to a more serious note. . .While I am not going to preach about the border protection plans (or lack there of), this problem will never be solved. As long as our government caters to the poor by providing them a lifetime of medical insurance and food reimbursement plans, we will never completely alleviate the "illegal alien" issues.
While the border states do have jobs that many Americans WILL NOT do, we may need to implement strategies that still seem favorable to the Mexican population. Those strategies should also maintain strict policy that they do not receive healthcare or any other benefit of which Americans are entitled to.
The portion that worries me daily is the inflation rate. While congress elected to raise minimum wage, we all pay the price of inflation. If we completely eliminate all illegal immigration activity, we may steer ourselves into an irreversible overinflated economy where the key essentials to survival become luxuries to the middle class.
Several thousand Americans drive more than an hour to work. Mexico is an hour away. If work is what they desire, I say provide transportation twice a day. If their rights are stripped leaving no liability to the local businesses, both sides win.
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And as usual, the peanut gallery never asked one single, solitary, question of this new and improved, "tough-as-nails-on-illegals" president, pertaining to Ramos and Compean.
The so-called "media" that follows George of the Bungle around asking him hardball questions like, "What do you think of the weather here in Yuma, Mr. President"?, makes me every bit as sick to my stomach as this fool does.
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Bush's immigrating reform plan, like all these other "reform" plans, are going to fail because they are too complicated. They are too complicated because they are trying to trick us into believing that they are not an amnesty.
So what if illegals have to pay this, or do that, the end result will be that they broke the law but they will be rewarded by being allowed to stay. No to fake immigration reform plans. Yes to honest, fair enforcement of our immigration laws.
If you want to do something about it, contact your representative in congress. The FAIR website has all the contact info. Its web address is: http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer
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If you build it, they will (continue to) come.
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Lou Dobbs CNN
has several Mexicans working on his horse ranch in New Jersey.
Has anyone ever checked if they're
legal?
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#45
Bush didn't accept the offer to throw out the first Baseball in the season opening game....
because he couldn't get any military
to pose as a backdrop in the photo.
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If you are reading this now, that means you are not risking your life sneaking across the border, nor are you in a refugee camp in Darfur, nor drinking polluted water in a South American rainforest. You are probably safely ensconced in the United States, bemoaning the hordes of illegal immigrants who are not like you. And they are not like you because of AN ACCIDENT OF BIRTH.
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
--Luke 12:48
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#63 Christine M.
Your comment raises several questions. How do you know that they're Mexicans? If they are Mexicans, then how do you know that they are not Mexican-Americans (emphasis on American)? I suggest that you increase your exposure to more Mexican-Americans. You'll be delighted - they don't like ILLEGAL aliens either.
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Charlie A #44,
As an ex-business owner I know exactly where you are coming from. Also as a teenager I worked on a few of my uncle’s ranches and orchards in the San Joaquin Valley in California. He grew pecans, walnuts, almonds, grapes, nectarines and peaches all on hundreds of acres.
There would be more than a hundred or more illegal’s at any given time during harvest season. Although the unemployment rate in the area was among the highest in the country.
I am 110 percent against illegal immigration. But peaches will not pick them self’s. White, Black and Yellow people refuse to take these jobs. If you have ever spent an hour in a peach tree you might understand why they take welfare, food stamps etc. etc. rather then take a job on a ranch or orchard.
How many times have you been driving on I-10 or I-8 and seen a white person out in the field picking anything. You will see a white person on the tractor or machinery.
These illegal’s were hard working and worked for minimum wage or less. There was no crime other than they were here illegally.
The illegal’s I am talking about are not the one’s you see on TV protesting anything. They worked for substandard wages and would go back to Mexico after harvest with what little money they made working 12-16 hour days 7 days a week to provide for there families and return the next year at harvest time.
To be honest if I could cross a border and make 10 times what I am making now and my family was living in poverty I would do so.
What I do not like to see is all the illegal’s all lumped into one group. There are defiantly two types of illegal crossers. Group 1 the hard working group. Group 2 the ones that cross to take advantage of all the freebies the government is so willing to hand out.
In my opinion take away the freebies such as welfare, food stamps, health care, section 8 housing etc. etc.. And that might just work better then a fence or an ill-conceived immigration policy.
OUR BORDERS MUST BE PROTECTED AT ALL COST. But surly someone can come with a plan that will let group 1 do there thing and as far as group 2 goes stop giving our hard earned money (taxes) away for nothing but USA bashing, drug smuggling, gangs and crime.
I do not have the answer. I just needed to vent a little about nothing that makes any since being offered up by our government.
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Joan, most illegal are here "because of AN ACCIDENT OF BIRTH." They just happened to have been born in a country that is south of us. Do you think that they should receive special, preferential treatment over people from "Darfur" or "South America"?
That is what illegal immigration is doing now. It is mostly rewarding law breaking, illegal aliens that just happen come form a country that is geographically close to us. Shouldn't all the world's people get an equal and fair shot at legal immigration to the US?
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#50 How could it be worse? The GOP has given the keys to the Nation away. What else is there to offer?
I'm glad to see though that most Republicians aren't out getting fitted for sombreros. I'm sure a few will though. After all, it's much more fun to bash others and pretend to be some part of a multi-national elite that admit that one has been betrayed and the American people sold down the river.
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#68. Comment by Ron K. (Average American) says:
Do you think that they should receive special, preferential treatment over people from "Darfur" or "South America"?
I would like to see us tone down the hateful rhetoric. I would like to see us stop exploitiing other people and their resources around the world. I would like to see us look for some positive approaches to encourage Mexicans to stay home. I would like to see an immigration policy that is not so onerous.
They are our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. I would like to see us treat them as such.
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I agree with Joel (#50). Kerry is would be no worse than Bush. Americans for Better Immigration, A group that supports the fight against illegal immigration gives Kerry a "D" grade. It doesn't have a grade for Bush but I very much doubt that it would be higher than "D".
Gore receives an "A-". If he would have been elected, we probably wouldn't even be in this illegal immigration mess right now.
The "Immigration Report Cards" are at:
http://www.betterimmigration.com/index.html
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My last comment actually refers to Joel's #69 comment.
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Joan by saying that, "They are our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. I would like to see us treat them as such." are you justifying preferential treatment for Mexicans and/or Hispanics.
I can't agree with that because I don't think that a group of people should be given preferential or prejudicial treatment because of their ethnicity. Giving preferential treatment to Hispanics would mean that we would have to give prejudicial treatment against Africans, Asians, Europeans, etc. that want to come here legally, because they are the wrong color or race. Everyone should be treated equally.
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Democrats, pick your reason NOT to support "comprehensive" immigration reform:
1). Its consequences would be rapid and disastrous, affecting Americans extremely adversely in their daily lives, and they would realize that the legislation was a fraud designed to accelerate, not mitigate, illegal immigration anarcy. Consequently, open-borders incumbents in Congress will be swept out of office in large numbers in 2008, shifting control out of the hands of the Democrats and Bushies and into the hands of populists, primarily those of Republican affiliation, thus returning control of Congress to the Republicans.
2). "Comprehensive" immigration reform would usher in a golden age of an immigration system that's compassionate yet well-regulated. Americans would rejoice, and George Bush would be hailed as one of the great Presidents of all time, with his achievement on immigration overshadowing all his failures on other issues. Democrats who helped enact Bush's immigration plan thus would have help George Bush achieve sainthood.
--------
Both of these are arguments you see in the media (although I have dramatized them a bit)
I think most people recognize that scenario 2 is out in la-la-land.
But, hey, if you really think "comprehensive" immigration reform is going to make things better in this country rather than to cause massive damage, then 2 would seem to follow.
So, whether you agree with 1 or 2, EVERYONE should be against "comprehensive" immigration reform, except for Bush and his wing of the Republican Party.
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In response to Joan:
How is it treating neighbors with respect to consider them so lacking in personal ethics that we assume they have no ability to recognize that it is wrong to cross into someone else's nation without permission?
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Kerry would have been better than Bush.
The Republicans in Congress would not have let him get away with the kind of negligence on border policy that Bush has engaged in.
Kerry would have known that from day one and would probably have been smart enough to engage in at least a moderate amount of border enforcement so as not to provide the Republicans with an avenue of attack.
In contrast, Bush figured he could get away with ANYTHING, and he was right.
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Stop sniveling about Bush. You voted for him TWICE. Weren't you paying attention to what you were doing?
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The credible studies I have read indicate that a large majority of the people who are in this country illegally came here legally on student visas, work visas and the like and have simply not left the country when their allotted time expired.
All of the border fences and walls we can build and all of the guards and soldiers we station at the border will not address this issue. Is there any effort being made to track people whose visas have expired? Not that I can see.
Without addressing myself to the need for or advisability of immigration in general, I submit that dealing only with keeping people from coming across our border with Mexico largely impacts poor, undereducated, underemployed Hispanics whether that is the intention or not.
Looks pretty racist to me.
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Did anyone else notice that the news media isn't paying much attention to Bush's immigration reform efforts? That's good as far as I'm concerned. I hope no "reform" (i.e. legalization of illegals) is passed at the federal level. I hope the raids and ramp up of border enforcement continue. Then we will get to vote on anti-illegal immigration measures at the state level.
At least two ballot propositions are in the works to crack down on illegal immigration. One called the LAW initiative (for Legal Arizona Workers) would force employers to verify employees ID through the Federal Basic Pilot program and the other (the SOLE initiative; for Support Our Law Enforcement) would require state and local police ask for proof of citizenship during their normal duties and turn over illegals to the Border Patrol. Both will pass easily, and if an activist judge doesn't overturn them, they will be a very effective way of reducing the number illegal aliens here.
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TJ, I am pretty sure that is about half and half, crossers verses overstayers, but no one knows for sure. But the illegal crossers are a bigger concern because they are truly undocumented. At least the overstayers had been checked out first. You never know what you get with an illegal crosser.
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67. Comment by Tom B. -
"I am 110 percent against illegal immigration. But...."
There you go Tom, if you have to add a, "But", or a, "however", after that first statement? Then you aren't "against" anything.
77. Comment by Archer -
"Stop sniveling about Bush. You voted for him TWICE. Weren't you paying attention to what you were doing?"
I would have voted for a trained monkey before I EVER would have pulled the lever for that moron.
Don't try to project your own sniveling buyer's remorse on the rest of us.
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81. Comment by Tom F.
If I took out the but. That would mean that the peaches pick themselves. BUT I know they can't.
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Sorry I ment Reply to 81. Comment by Tom F.. But I made a mistake.
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Tom B. -
It's called "hiring American workers". Learn it. Know it. Live it.
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Something tells me Bush liked to play Whack-a-mole at the carnival as a child.
Whether it's the border, Iraq, or stories concerning the behavior of his staff, it seems to be his definition of success ("heck of a job, Brownie").
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67. Comment by Tom -
Not to pick on you tom but I just finished reading your post.
"How many times have you been driving on I-10 or I-8 and seen a white person out in the field picking anything. White, Black and Yellow people refuse to take these jobs."
This example is no barometer for making any point about why illegals pick vegetables or fruit.
First of all illegals have been stealing American jobs for as long as people like your uncle have been illegally hiring them. Decades and decades.
Guys like your uncle break the law by hiring them because as you yourself say, the wages he pays are crap. Then your uncle agrees to hire job-stealing, low-balling illegals because he is too cheap, with his "pecans, walnuts, almonds, grapes, nectarines and peaches all on hundreds of acres."
to pay a livable, working wage, to American workers. Of any color.
This is the exact reason employers who hire illegals should be arrested right along-side the illegals and hauled off to jail for conspiring to, by system of organized "cheap-hood", prevent American workers from making a decent wage for a back-breaking days work. On top of that, they should be jailed for exploiting illegal workers by enticing them to work for the very same peanuts they pick, for performing the very same back-breaking days work.
As far as the old, "but my uncle didn't make any money himself", forget that! If they cannot survive economically without resorting to screwing American workers over for illegal aliens that are reaping havoc all across this nation, then they should get the h*** out of the business!
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aztex...I thought you mentioned whacking off, because that is precisely what Bush was doing at the border.
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Tom B. #67: " In my opinion take away the freebies such as welfare, food stamps, health care, section 8 housing etc. etc.. And that might just work better then a fence or an ill-conceived immigration policy. "
Know exactly what you're talking about, as I also grew up back in the 50's in an agro area. Back then, and where I lived, it was poor whites and blacks working in the orchards and fields. But not after the 'Great Society' welfare-for-votes plan was passed. History has repeated itself, when this 'generosity' was extended to non-citizens, and now the majority of illegal immigrants aren't working in the fields either.
IMO, most of us were not terribly opposed to helping our fellow citizens during the 'Great Society' era. However in this era, our politicians should be legislating a halt to forced taxpayer funding of housing, feeding, educating, medicating and incarcerating millions who are now here via ignoring exisiting immigration laws.
If this most recent legislation is passed, it will break the backs of the middle class = the segment of taxpayers forced to support, tolerate and compete with massive, and legalized 'cheap' labor. Billions of poor in the third-worlds are holding their breath waiting for this shoe to drop, so they can rush on in for a bountiful existance as compared to where they now live = because in this era, it isn't just Mexicans who will be taking advantage of this proposed free-4-all. It would be 'racist' to assume otherwise. This is an unfair and uneccessary 'advantagous' reward for violating our laws as their first act after stepping foot on U.S. soil.
When you add up all the benefits obtainable through our social welfare programs, and then throw free medical at our ER/trauma centers on top, plus working off the books under an 'assumed' cheap-labor alias, you get a nice subsidized untaxed 'wage' existance, which unfairly burdens those who can afford it the least. And history will repeat itself again with more illegal labor willing to work for lower wages than the benificiaries of this next amnesty, knowing full well all they have to do is wait for the next amnesty.. in the not too distant future.
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its funny that the Star would print this happy little "nothing to see here" type of article...wait..no its absoulutly TYPICAL.
Compare to CBS news artlcle of the SAME day (headline " Border Patrol Agents under Attack" Yuma, Arizona April 09, 2007 www.cbsnews.com )
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44......Guess if you can't get legal workers, then you are out of business.
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From Shannon O'Neil reprinted at CFR:
According to Ms. O'Neil, the whole illegal immigration question is soon to be moot. Read if you dare.
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Joel S. #69: " I'm glad to see though that most Republicians aren't out getting fitted for sombreros. I'm sure a few will though."
Right about that Joel, at least it's a 'very few'.. unlike the majority of 'sombrero' wearing Congressional Dems who 'ride' WITH Bush on this 'amnesty' (ever see Dems vote against any amnesty?). If you're not aware of that reality, seek and you will find the truth, or put your head back in the sand and keep pretending you're represented by people who serve your interests first and foremost.
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#92, I think your sombrero is on a tad too tight.
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IMHO, Joel.. it's inexcusable in this age of accessable and easy to obtain facts & knowledge, that there are still voters who refuse to face the reality of what 'is' and what is not:
" Unfortunately, for the large Democratic part of our NumbersUSA membership, I have to say that the Democratic leadership in Congress has already agreed that it is willing to sell out Americans on immigration. Our only hope is to get most Republicans to resist. If we do, there are many indications that the Democratic leaders will get cold feet about bringing the amnesty to a vote for fear that voters will vote them out of the majority in '08. The Democratic leaders need enough Republicans joining in the sell-out to offer them political cover. " ~ quote numbersusa = citizens ADVOCATE organization
And this right from the horses mouth: " Cecilia Munoz, senior vice president of the National Council of LaRaza, noted that the council had representatives from 32 states lobbying Congress this week on immigration and "it's hard to overstate the level of energy and enthusiasm." She added that both parties have a stake in a more successful outcome than in 2006, when the Senate and House passed divergent immigration bills and no conference committee was convened.
The Democrats feel pressure to show "they can deliver legislation that the country is demanding" while Republicans are fighting for "the soul of the party" and the votes of a growing Latino electorate, Munoz said. When some Republicans sought to ride voters' perceived anti-immigrant sentiment to victory in the 2006 election, Munoz said, "they overwhelmingly failed." "
Personally, I believe Ms. Munoz will be surprised by the next election, when she sees it's a majority of 'Americans' who will vote to oppose immporting an unfair advantage for the middle class, and not 'party' affiliation that's driving the voters to the polls. Maybe I should say I 'hope' that's the case.
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Yeah, yeah, and Bush & the GOP did what for the situation from 2001-2006? Quit defending the twit you voted for twice. He's sold us out, lock, stock and barrel!
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Joel, if you're looking for a fight, try a bar in Tucson. I've heard there's plenty to go around.
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I wish I'd seen your post there Charlie before I went off so hard on poor Tom. Compared to his post, yours is the mother of all illegal hiring B.S.
44. Comment by charlie -
"We have a severe labor shortage" ---
It is patently false to say the United States has a "severe labor shortage" with over 300 million people living here. The problem, as I said before, is our employers have gotten so used to paying low-ball wages to illegals and padding their own pockets with the difference, they only seem to be able to say things like "labor shortage, labor shortage", when asked why they don't hire Americans.
"We should be extremely hesitant about using illegal immigrants to loosen labor markets. As we all learned in college economics, when a supply increases, its value decreases." (In reference to what becomes of the hourly wages that American laborors make once illegal aliens begin to flood into the American labor market and become routinely hired by American employers.) - David North, Director of the Center for Labor and Migration Studies
"Despite the cries of labor shortages by many American employers today, we have seen that the wages and working conditions in affected regions and occupations have not changed appreciably. ... I would be concerned about establishing whole new [immigration] mechanisms for employers to claim labor shortages to deal with what they see as their ability not to recruit workers at their current pay levels and working conditions. They're (illegals) new avenues to basically have a low-wage solution to an economic problem rather than a high-wage solution, which I think in the long run more beneficial to the country."
- Economist Lawrence Mishel in testimony concerning possible illegal immigrant work visa programs, 2007.
"Mexico has a severely depresed ecenomy and too many people..." - Charlie
This, of course, is definitely NOT the problem of the United States, This is a problem for the mexican people, who should stay in their own country and go to work fixing their OWN countries problems. Just like Americans have always worked on ours.
"anyone who thinks they can run a landscape company without the use of hispanic workers to give it a try."
First of all, you keep referring to illegal aliens as "hispanics workers". You should really work on your terminology so you can use it correctly. You cannot lump all hispanics together with illegal aliens. But if you cannot run a business without paying low-ball wages to illegals then you are right. You should not be in the business.
"our HR department was not trained in false documentation detection."
Charlie, there is a government agency in this country known as the Social Security Administration. Here's how it works. Been this way for decades. A new employee gives his boss his social security number and then you , the boss, sends it on a form into the Social Security Adm. and requests verification of this persons number. i.e."Does the number match the name?" Takes a week to ten days to get your list of names back. I know all this because I used to work for Social Security.
Finally, I notice you have a habit of using terms like "many very fine people" in reference to the illegals. As well as, "good people". This isn't about how "good" or "fine" the illegals are as a people. This problem is so far reaching, that a few, "boy they're good people" and "man are they nice!" , just isn't going to cut it when it comes time to remodel your new house because the illegals working on the hod were used to mixing it a little less carefully where they came from. Or that drywall hanger liked to miss the furring strips too often when he used his nail gun and the wall is separating from the framing. And on and on.
The bottom line is Charlie, it is not so simplistic as "we need workers because there aren't any", because the fact is that is totally untrue. In the future, you or others who do the hiring in construction, or landscaping or hospitality, are going to face serious consequences of your own if you continue to hire job-stealing, low-balling, illegal aliens.
And personally, I hope I am there when they put the cuffs on whoever did the hiring and leads them away. Hiring illegals over Americans? I suggest you and the other employers quit being such greedy tight wads and cough up the correct AMERICAN hourly wages. THEN we'll see how much of a "labor shortage" there is.
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#95 Joel - I couldn't agree more. The simpletons who support Bush are mind boggling in their idiocy.
I'm an ardent independent but stayed mostly on the republican side, problem is now, they are so corrupted by special interests and holy rollers, it's not the same republican party. The Republican party is now big government and is totally corrupt...
I seriously wonder about the IQ of people I meet who are card carrying members of the republican party. I figure they are just uninformed or on the take with some government program, working for Haliburton or something...
The 33% of supporters of the current regime really ought to get their heads out of their a$$es...
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98. Comment by Don -
"I seriously wonder about the IQ of people I meet who are card carrying members of the republican party. I figure they are just uninformed or on the take..."
That is the exact same way I feel about the democrats. They came into this thing last november with a mandate from the people! Repubs and dems alike. They have not done one single g-damn thing, about ANYTHING since they have been in.
Except go on break.
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#91 Joan T.
You said: According to Ms. O'Neil, the whole illegal immigration question is soon to be moot.
Interesting article by Shannon O'Neil. I hope she is correct. You will have to pardon my skepticism when there is so much information that contradicts her position. Have you seen what Mexico's new ambassador to the U.S. has to say?
"Even if there was a wildly positive immigration reform tomorrow, that is not going to do the trick of diminishing the migrant flows of Mexicans to the United States." As usual, you will have to substitute the term ILLEGAL alien for the term migrant to fully appreciate what he is saying.
Article Source
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100. Comment by Jim -
Especially when it's the mexican government who is doing the packing for them.....
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#101 Tom F.
When I read that article about what Arturo Sarukhan said, it sounded like a challenge to me. He essentially said that the ILLEGAL aliens are going to continue to invade our country whether we like it or not - and there's not a damn thing we can do about it.
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You know, I am constantly amused by employers who claim that "no American citizen will apply for a job working in the fields, in landscaping, construction, etc."
I live in a small rural town in the midwest, and we have few illegal immigrants living in my community. Our farmers, landscapers, and construction businesses manage very well without the use of illegal labor...some are, in fact, very wealthy.
Why is it that employers in many of our border states find it impossible to find good workers, though they "claim" to first offer American citizens these jobs for good wages? I seriously doubt that the American citizens living in our border states are lazier or less productive than those in my community, yet we have never had a shortage of good, American workers. So it leads me to conclude that these employers are motivated by greed, or they are simply incompetent and shouldn't be in business in the first place.
My own father was part owner of a construction firm, who found no need to hire illegals, and paid American workers $20-$30 per hour with good benefits. The business was, and still is, very successful, and my father was able to retire early and travel the world with no financial worries. He has often said that his greatest satisfaction in business was the ability to provide his workers with a good living in exchange for their hard labor.
My ex-husband's family are farmers who have made millions without ever hiring illegal aliens. They do, however, hire high school kids and other American citizens to help out during the hot, humid summers...at a wage of about $20 an hour.
I, myself, have worked at a grocery store, as a waitress at a restaurant, cleaning at a bed and breakfast, and caring for children. My children, while in high school, have hauled hay in the fields, worked for a local landscaper, at a gas station, at an ice cream shop, in a nursing home, and as a child care worker...WE are American citizens, and we HAVE done many of the jobs our corporate elite and politicians say "Americans won't do."
That said, I fully support those of any race or ethnic/cultural background who wish to LEGALLY immigrate to the U.S., and like the majority of American citizens, will never advocate any amnesty/guest worker legislation.
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Neither political party has addressed "LEGAL" immigration in USA!
Neither party will, they are too busy lining their pockets with $'s...
Expect NOTHING in the next election concerning REAL "LEGAL" immigration issues.
It won't be happening.
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#44
Obviously, if landscape companies paid what this sort of work was worth, Americans would take these jobs. However, many home owners, businesses, apartment complexes would also realize how expensive this sort of work was getting to be, and either do the work themselves, hire college or high school kids who desperately need the money, or simply "landscape" appropriately for their region. With 100 + degree days its no wonder that Americans wont take a job paying minimum wage plus. It is a puzzlement though why any moron would fight mother nature for the sake of making his McMansion look like it's in Oak park Illinois rather than Tuscon Arizona.
Certainly some people can make a living taking advantage of this sort of person, but pretending that "landscaping the desert" constitutes some important service that the community "needs" borders on the ridiculous. I have neighbors who whine bitterly about trying to find someone to mow their lawn (for what they are willing to pay), yet these same people are too busy "tanning" and "playing Tennis" to drag the mower a few passes across the yard once a week themselves. I would note that these are the same people who's teenage children have carpal tunnel and bed sores from sitting on their "fat A _ _ watching TV and playing video games.
Any business that cannot compete using American workers, probably lacks the products, innovation, or management skills to remain an on-going concern anyway. Certainly not at the expense of America's workers and tax payers.
Let's face it, in an increasingly competitive "dog eat dog" world, not every little thing that someone with money doesn't want to do for themselves justifies building a business to do it for them. If all landscapers had to use legal American workers, none would have an unfair advantage to use illegals. Yes the price they charge would go up, and some lendscapers will doubtless go out of business. And yes, some people might have to learn how to push a mower once in a while. I'm not seeing how any of this justifies violating our immigration laws, burdening American tax payers, etc....
Hard as it may be for those in the business to accept, hiring a landscaper only makes sense for people who are too wealthy and too lazy to do it themselves. And I can't even pretend to speculate as to what kind of job someone would have had to be a failure at doing that would make violating our immigration laws to eek out an existance as a landscaper seem like a worhwhile endeavor. Just because you enjoy working in the soil doesn't mean that you deserve to get paid for it! I'd love to fly the space shuttle, but that doesn't mean anyone's gonna pay me to do it!
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video
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